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Post by Draxas on Oct 12, 2005 19:58:53 GMT -5
I don't know if I would go that far... FF7 was mediocre at best, and at it's worst, was total crap. FF8 was a step down, as total crap the whole way through. 9 was better, though I find it still lack that certain something that makes a game truly great... But I liked 10 (mostly). It seemed to me that Square had finally gotten its act together for that game. It was the first FF I managed to finish since 3/6j (barring Tactics, but that's not really considered a true FF game for the purposes of this discussion), and was pretty enjoyable for most of, if not all, the way through. With the exception of Tidus and Yuna (who the story unfortunately centered around), most of the cast was actually interesting, rather than either overblown stereotypes or planks of particle board (or personifications of mental illness like the characters in 7 ). The game looked nice, and unlike the earlier 3d FFs, didn't feel like a "pretty prison" as my friend puts it; If there's a path, then there's a path and you can explore it, if there's no path, chances are it's a barrier (whereas the number of places in FF7 that had areas that looked like they could be explored but an arbitrary invisble wall in front of them were too numerous to count). And the music was actually GOOD 90% of the time, which is something I can't say about any other FF since 3/6j. I actually completed almost all of the tasks possible in the game, except for defeating some of the toughest arena superhardoptionalbosses, and the only things I really found tedious were the things everyone complains about: 200 lightning bolts, playing an obscene amount of Blitzball to power up Wakka, Kimahri's butterfly challenge, completing the arena monster collection. Of course, then they followed that up with X2. PLEASE let's not talk about Final Fantasy Dress Up Quest.
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Post by niff on Oct 12, 2005 22:54:51 GMT -5
Which further proves that FFV and FFIII/FFVI are the best FFs. >_>
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Post by Draxas on Oct 13, 2005 1:39:11 GMT -5
3/6, then 2/4, then 1. Then we can talk about 5 (and 10; not sure which I like better). Of course, once again, this isn't even considering the fact that Tactics might be a part of the FF series. Because if it was, that would be up there ahead of 5 also.
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Post by Ranger on Oct 13, 2005 3:52:47 GMT -5
I will murder you all one day in your sleep. Just have people running in examining the bloody sheets and the many swords and knifes covered in blood embedded in the walls.
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Post by Raven on Oct 13, 2005 9:19:42 GMT -5
Yep, that's the type of argument I'd expect from a fanboy.
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Post by Draxas on Oct 13, 2005 14:41:32 GMT -5
Pretty much.
*Tacks a sign that reads "LAME" to Ranger's forehead with scotch tape.*
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Post by Ranger on Oct 13, 2005 14:58:32 GMT -5
aww that makes me feel warm and fuzzy. Memoriesss. Me and an ex had a joke about being lame. Our other friend also an ex of mine always called us lame because she thought our love was extremely stupid cuddly nonsense. So we started calling each other lame when we did something sweet. *dances all faerie like*
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Post by Draxas on Oct 13, 2005 19:54:55 GMT -5
*Tacks a sign that reads "FAIRY" to Ranger's forehead with scotch tape.*
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Post by Altl on Oct 14, 2005 11:50:59 GMT -5
The game was just filled with a bunch of filler stuff that really had no purpose in it, seemingly just to make gameplay longer. I mean, they could've easily sliced like 15 hours of gameplay out of that. I had like 30 hours on disc 1, wasn't even done with it, and looking back was fed-up with how much stupid stuff was going on. There were times when I was so frustrated at it because, my biggest example, coming out of the scene with Cait Sith backstabbing you, you wind up at Yuffie's hometown or whatever as the nearest city. So I go there thinking "Hey, new place, guess this is where I should be." I spend 2 days wandering that city and the places around it thinking I need to get into a tower that a guard is sleeping in front of and other crap. So I go on GameFAQs and I need to be at Coral4 or whever that place is, on the other frickin' side of the map. Game didn't say anything about where to go, I would NEVER had figured to go there if not for a guide. Not to mention all the hype it gets from fanboys. The only reason I would grant this game a title of "good" is because it was the first to utalize a 3-D engine for FF and had a pretty good soundtrack. That being said, 8, 9, 10, etc. weren't that good according to this logic because they weren't the defining games. Looking back at the entire FF series, from 7 on every game has been the exact same. Seriously. There's really no reason to keep playing, because it's just the same game format with a different plot. Very repititious. Hate FF. I would have to disagree with what you said about how the game is filled with excessive filler stuff. I felt that overall the game did pretty well to give the player a pretty cut and dry story in that department. Final Fantasy VII was made before the extemely elitest 900 hour games started taking over. Furthermore, you being an OoT fanlad can't talk about excessive filler stuff, re: the repetitive puzzles(how many times can you move a box onto a square without it getting dull?) and the whole well level. As for getting lost, I'm not sure how you managed that. One of my biggest problems with FFVII as a whole was the fact that it told you exactly where to go throughout the game. Perhaps you weren't critically reading the dialouge well enough? The point that from seven on the game has been the same is void. Final Fantasy constantly changes the magic system as well as some aspects of the battle system. I'm sure we can all remember that damn draw system in Final Fantasy VIII as well a the added R1 you could press at the end of squalls attacks to fire the gunblade. Then you have Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles that completely changed the game making it hack and slash-esque; oh and who can forget Final Fantasy Tactics?I would also point out that the in depth plots of final fantasy is what keeps bringing gamers back. The Zelda series hasn't changed all that much since OoT and arguably since LttP, its all just hack slash, charge, etc. etc. yet you and dozens of others continue to come back, you come back for the same reason FF fans come back. In any case, I'm partial to Dragon Warrior. Hate E.T. : The Extraterrestrial.
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Post by Draxas on Oct 14, 2005 14:04:08 GMT -5
I thought we weren't considering the spinoff FF games for this discussion? At any rate, FF Tactics and Crystal Chronicles (and Mystic Quest, which everyone seems to forget about) are not "true" FF games, they simply have the title tacked on to generate sales or because of a more passing resemblance to the series.
I like the Dragon Warrior series as well, but I have to say that lately, neither one compels me like they used to. I maintain that the best DW game was 4, and that was back on the NES; I haven't been really satisfied with an installment of the game in over 10 years.This could possibly have something to do with the fact that the whole experience seems pretty dated by now; the DW system hasn't fundamentally changed since the second game (and certainly changes less than FF), it's just being refined slightly in each installment.
However, I don't think the feeling of the "same game" comes from the mechanics themselves; rather it's the constant plot rehashing that does it. There is always an "evil empire," there is always the "band of rebels," there is always the "true evil" behind the bad guy. This was OK in the days of the SNES, as the cliches weren't cliches yet... But by the time the PS1 rolled around, it was starting to feel old. And if you look, it's always there as a standard FF plot device:
FF2/4j: Cecil, the exiled commander of the Red Wings, and his band of followers, fight to save the world from Golbez and the kingdom of Baron, who are being controlled by Zemus, an evil being from the Moon.
FF5: Butz, a heroic wanderer, and his followers fight to save their world from Exdeath and his kingdom of evil from an alternate dimension... And surprisingly, Exdeath actually IS the true evil for once.
FF3/6j: Terra, a former slave of the Empire, and her companions in the Returners, fight to save the world from Emperor Geshtahl and the empire of Vector, who are being manipulated and are eventually supplanted by Kefka, the insane Magitek general.
FF7: Cloud, a former member of SOLDIER, and the members of AVALANCHE, fight to save the world from the Shinra Corporation, who are quickly supplanted by a greater evil in Sephiroth, who himself is being manipulated and controlled by Jenova, and evil being from space.
FF8: Squall, a SEED trainee, and his companions from Balamb Garden, fight to save the world from the Sorceress and the forces from her Garden, who is being controlled by another Sorceress from backwards in time... or is it forwards in time? I have no freaking clue, this game sucked ass.
FF9: Zidane, a noble thief, and his companions, fight to save the world from Queen What'shername and the Kingdom of Alexandria, who are being manipulated by Kuja, an evil member of a race bent on conquest from a parallel universe.
FF10: Tidus, a Blitzball player from an alternate reality, and his companions, fight to save the world from Sin, who is being protected in some bass-ackwards way by the ruling council of the Theocracy of Bevelle and Seymour, and is actually being controlled by the old ruler of Zanarkand.
Noticing a pattern yet? At least the basic premise of every DW game tends to vary a bit more.
Truth be told, I find a lot more enjoyment in games that do something different, and am really moving away from the big 2 series. I feel that FF is now being aimed at the Lowest Common Denominator to generate more mass appeal (and thus, more $$), and while the plots of all the DW games have been interesting (if a bit cliched sometimes), the game's refusal to evolve in any significant way tends to make it more tedious to play at times than it needs to be. I've found a lot more interest in RPGs like Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne, which not only has rather unique mechanics, but and excellently written plot that really makes you think about and question what path you want to take during the game (and has 5 or 6 different endings to make you feel like those decisions make a difference).
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Post by N3B on Oct 14, 2005 14:53:24 GMT -5
I only mentioned one part of specificness to where I was lost and confused; the part with Cait Sith's scene of backstabbage. I never saw anything saying "We should go check out Coral IV" or any clue, it just said "Let's continue on" (or something to that effect). The other frustrations are from (at times) weird camera angles, invisible walls, and a few other tidbits.
Ok, so, FF changes battle aspects from game to game; aside from plot, music, characters, etc., hardly anything else does.
LoZ: started the series; can't compare it to the others AoL: 100% different; side-scrolling, more RPG-style LttP: more or less the same as LoZ only with alot more capabilities and special features OoT: First to go 3-D; this enabled a vast array of differences MM: The 3-day system was indeed a major change WW: Sailing... lots of it. Changed graphic style, added new combat features
LoZ has changed over time; I suppose you could compare it in the same manner as FF "changes," that being changing the plot and battle mechanics from game to game. FF, however, being a turn-based RPG, it gets to be extremely montonous going from game-to-game. It feels almost the exact same.
LoZ and puzzles - repetitive? Combat in FF? Also repetitive. Perhaps I'm just drifting away from liking instanced battle scenes and random encounters like what FF does, and I could apply this argument to any game that uses this style. Even if it were something like what ChronoTrigger did, where it wasn't random encounters, it would be tolerable. If there were books made on the plotlines for final fantasy, I'd probably read 'em, because the games are just way too montonous and boring, IMO.
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Post by Altl on Oct 14, 2005 19:28:52 GMT -5
I've used up all my debate juice, just wanted to point out to Draxas the the next Dragon Warrior is gonna be the last one. Why, because it refuses to evolve or because there is more Square than Enix in the merger? I have no idea; its quite the humdinger.
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Post by Draxas on Oct 14, 2005 20:06:54 GMT -5
Both, I think. With Squeenix being an international company, and RPG sales in the US being far more significant than they were 10 years ago, they need to try to please more than just the Japanese audience. The Japanese have always gone wild for the Dragon Quest games; so much so that their release dates are literally work holidays. However, by the same token, the games have always been very "hardcore RPG fringe" in the US and have sold poorly. Enix was fine making a tidy sum catering mainly to Japan, and getting "gravy" sales from their US releases. Square has never been satisfied with that business model, and it shows, especially with this merger.
I would be willing to bet that there is indeed much more Square influence than Enix in the new company; their name and games continue to get top billing, while the classic Enix titles have fallen by the wayside.
I'll be sorry to see the series go, as it's one of those classic holdovers from the early NES days and I'm a sucker for any series I can remember playing in elementary school. But I won't be too sad; as I said, I haven't really been truly satisfied with any installment since 4.
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Post by Ranger on Oct 15, 2005 0:44:10 GMT -5
I swear to god Draxas you are so finding a horse head in your bed one of these days...
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Post by Draxas on Oct 15, 2005 3:10:42 GMT -5
EFF. EFF. FAN. BOY.
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