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Post by Draxas on Jul 25, 2009 0:15:59 GMT -5
Edward is complete, then. I'll post up his intro.
As for HMS, there is that vanishing act at the end of the game. However, he also hangs out inside the Clock Tower, which seems to be a sort of passage between Termina and Hyrule where time doesn't pass. Then there is flavor text that hints that he and the HMS from Ocarina are one and the same, and that he can pass between many worlds for his own purposes. And the fact that he's the only character besides Link who retains his memory after the Song of Time is played to restart the 3-day cycle.
Granted, he is mostly an enigma. But the hints that are there seem to indicate that he is some sort of vastly powerful entity.
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Post by N3B on Jul 25, 2009 3:19:20 GMT -5
Skull Kid also came from Hyrule (he says "You remind me of that kid who taught me that song in the forest" referencing you teaching him Saria's Song to get a heart piece in OOT). Mr Salesman is quite a mystery, and there are hints that he serves a greater purpose in the Universe, but I don't think he's all that "big" of a player. Even if he does have tremendous earth-shattering power, he chooses not to use it, preferring rather to take the indirect, subtle, conniving way to get things done. For example, we might suspect that Mr Salesman was fully aware of the powers of Majora's Mask, hence why he went through such great lengths to track it down and acquire it. Perhaps he knew that if he were to put it on, he'd lose all control of himself and go on to destroy the world. Perhaps he knowingly let the Skull Kid take it, intending to assist Link in defeating Majora's Mask (he teaches you the Song of Healing in order to save the Giants and summon them to stop the Moon, and those kids running around on the Moon who eventually give you the Fierce Deity Mask look a hell of a lot like younger Mask Salesmen and ask for masks). Then, at the end of the game, once Link has beaten Majora, HMS takes the mask and says that the power has vanished, so that he may now safely own the legendary Mask. So to me, he seems more like an agent of influence, more than any sort of inter-dimensional powerhouse. He himself doesn't have many powers aside from precognition, perhaps a little omniscience, and a few peculiar behaviors (like pulling massive organs from thin air and changing his stature without actually moving, which I view as simple personality flairs). He seems interested in making people happy, but doesn't just go around making people happy with the flick of his hand -- for example in OOT he hires Link to go around selling masks to people, in order that Link's customers (and Link himself) might find happiness. All he does is give the tools to someone else and let the chips fall as they may. If those kids on the moon are connected to him in some way, they ask some pretty thought-provoking questions (paraphrased: "is your face beneath the mask your true face [or perhaps can a mask be a true face]", "does doing the right thing really make everyone happy?", "are your friends really your friends, do they think of you as a friend?", "if something makes you happy, does it make others happy?"). These questions may give further insight to the HMS and what motivates him. Perhaps he's just out to try to answer the Universe's questions, but requires other people to solve them (either as subjects, or through indirect assistance through Link, for example). Also, the one kid may suggest that the happy mask salesman's face isn't his true face. BOTTOM LINE:I don't think he's an overpowered/unbalanced character, especially considering that even if he is, he displays nothing but *vague hints* that he is something greater than he appears. We don't know exactly what that is, which means there's plenty of room for interpretation to essentially make him whatever you want him to be. My personal thought is that he's a celestial being (an angel of some sort?) trying to work through the constrictions/restrictions of a (relatively) normal human body. And, if you're going to make compromises with a robot the size of a ten-story building, to make him "fair" to play with other characters, I think you can make the Happy Mask Dude a fair character. I was originally trying to decide between the Happy Mask Salesman and Edward Carnby, but went with Ed because I'd literally just finished playing AITD (whereas I haven't beaten Majora's Mask in several years) and figured I'd enjoy RPing him after all the good and bad experiences of AITD. So if I can't/won't play him, I really want someone else to play him (or at least be allowed to)
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felix9
Regular
"Aura guide me."
Posts: 292
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Post by felix9 on Jul 25, 2009 9:36:19 GMT -5
I hope you don't mind Draxas, I still haven't thought of how Lucario will actually carry things around. Since he's still at "home" I figured I'd improvise.
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Post by Razor on Jul 25, 2009 12:09:31 GMT -5
It's not a matter of being unbalanced/overpowered for HMS, its because of one single ability...interdimensional travel. Being that he can freely (and has in the past) use this power, it would circumvent much of the point of the RPG. He's more the kind of character that would be an influential NPC than a PC.
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Post by Draxas on Jul 25, 2009 18:48:10 GMT -5
And now that he's been brought to the forefront of my attention, I think I will actually involve him as an NPC... maybe. We'll see where the plot takes us. But yes, as Razor says, the fact that he can jump dimensions with little more than a thought makes him unsuitable for use as a PC.
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Post by N3B on Jul 25, 2009 20:16:40 GMT -5
Remind me again exactly how he is able to travel through dimensions (with naught but a mere thought) and why this is so problematic.
If it's simply because he's in both OOT and MM, I might mention that Link, Epona, and the Skull Kid (perhaps even that obnoxious Owl) all must also have the power to travel through dimensions, so it must not be that unique of a power.
Especially considering I believe Link fell in a hole and wound up in Termina, which means there must be some sort of metaphysical link to this "alternate dimension" and thus making it a persistent part of the same World in which Hyrule is set.
HMS describes being mugged by the Skull Kid while traveling through a forest -- the very same place Link is mugged by the Skull Kid wherein he loses both the OOT and Epona. Link chases after the Skull Kid and falls down a hole (complete with the assortment of masks flying upward) and appears in what we can assume to be Termina. There he encounters the Skull Kid who presumably went through the hole before him. Then later, in Clock Town, he meets the HMS who says he has been following Link, ie, he likely also went through that hole in the forest to pursue both the Skull Kid and Link.
Thus, by this argument, no one actually has the power to simply "travel through dimensions" -- HMS, like Link and the Skull Kid, went through a physical portal which connects both "dimensions" within the same World.
I might also mention precedence that in the first iteration Merlin played as Link. Now I am going to try to argue that Link travels through dimensions and yet was allowed to be played (though perhaps more was accepted given that he's a protagonist but whatever).
First on the list: he's arguably in every Zelda game ever, and that each one (with the exception of OOT->MM and LTTP->LA I believe) are completely unrelated to one another and are set in "Alternate Hyrules." It might be said that "they're all different Links" in each case, although it is never explicitly said anywhere in any game that this is the case. Might it be the case here in MM?
In LTTP, Link gets the ability to freely travel between Hyrule and The Dark World. The latter is an alternate reality of the former, based on Ganon's manipulation of the Triforce.
In OOT, Link gets the ability to freely travel through time and effectively alter history creating multiple alternate realities -- he also travels to the Sacred Realm which is described as "mystical parallel dimension to the land of Hyrule."
In LA he winds up in a Dream World on Koholint Island, a place which doesn't actually exist.
In Wind Waker he goes through time or dimensions or whatever to visit the ye elden Hyrule before it was flooded.
In Twilight Princess he travels between the normal dimension and the Twilight realm in order to perform various tasks in both to affect the other.
And then he travels through worlds or dimensions or whatever you want to call it in order to appear in Soul Calibur 2.
Point is, it can be argued that Link travels dimensions and all sorts of funky nonsense, and it was not considered problematic when Merlin played him in the first COR.
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Post by Altl on Jul 26, 2009 0:13:25 GMT -5
Edward is complete, then. I'll post up his intro. As for HMS, there is that vanishing act at the end of the game. However, he also hangs out inside the Clock Tower, which seems to be a sort of passage between Termina and Hyrule where time doesn't pass. Then there is flavor text that hints that he and the HMS from Ocarina are one and the same The HMS is the same in both as OoT and MM are in the same Zelda-verse. The deal between the HMS and Link is made before the dawn of the first day, so of course he remembers it. In fact HMS is why there is a time limit initially. He states in meeting Link that he's leaving in 3 days.
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Post by N3B on Jul 26, 2009 6:41:03 GMT -5
Good point: Dawn of the First Day happens five minutes after you make the deal with HMS to get the Ocarina and Majora's Mask back. The very first "Dawn of the First Day" happens right after you talk to HMS and leave the Clock Tower, and every "Dawn of the First Day" thereafter mimics this pattern -- of placing you right outside the Clock Tower with the door slightly ajar. So as far as HMS is concerned, every time you play the Song of Time and go back 3 days, you just spoke to him 5 minutes ago and agreed to get the stuff back. He's as much a part of the routine time cycle as everyone else.
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Post by Draxas on Jul 27, 2009 9:41:13 GMT -5
How to respond... Let's see here. Remind me again exactly how he is able to travel through dimensions (with naught but a mere thought) and why this is so problematic. He illustrates this example in the ending of the game. If he really needed a "tunnel" to pass between dimensions, he wouldn't simply vanish into thin air out of the middle of Termina Field. This is problematic because travelling dimensions is the central conceit of the game. If players can do so freely, how am I supposed to hold together a coherent plot? Link, Epona, and Skull Kid all travel through a persistent portal to reach Termina, as you state below. In fact, considering he circumstances, it seems like it's possible that Skull Kid created that portal in the first place, using the power of Majora's Mask. The Owl is as much an alternate-reality-counterpart as anyone else who resides in Termina. Not necessarily. This portal between worlds, as I said above, may very well have been created by the Skull Kid, in an effort by Majora's Mask to return to Termina and take revenge against the Giants. That hole, and the resulting tunnel through to the inside of the Clock Tower, comprise a dimensional portal; the parade of masks sort of hints at its nature. I presume that the Skull Kid, as stated above, is the creator of said rift. As for HMS following Link, if that's the case, how does he arrive at the door to Termina before[/b] Link does, then? More likely that's embellishment to deflect suspicion, and he was quite capable of making his way to the other side of the door on his own and coming in that way to meet Link. I think I've made a reasonable argument for both the Skull Kid and HMS to have the power to traverse the dimensions without using the persistent tunnel from the start of the game. I'm going to state right now that it's a fallacy that Link is able to traverse dimensions "freely," and that this argument holds no water. Suffice to say that Link's timeline is pretty nebulous, true. However, given the context of the games, it's pretty clear that some Links are persistent through different games, and some are not. Here are the established connections, some of which you have to pore over manuals to find: LoZ > AoL LttP > LA OoT > MM > OoS > OoT FS > FSA The remainder are quite separate entities from each other, as laid out in the manual for LttP (a tale of Link's ancestor) and WW (the legend in the opening illustrates this quite clearly). Of course, there is also the statement from the fine folks at Nintendo who made this game that they're separate, too. Here come the deconstruction of individual examples. Readers will notice a pattern to my arguments. Not freely. In order to reach the Dark World, Link has to find static gates that persist in the world. In order to get back, he needs to use the Mirror (unique artifact) in order to create a temporary gate to the Light World. His ability to travel between dimensions is thus based on static world features and a powerful artifact, neither of which are innate to himself. Not freely. Link's ability to travel through time is contingent of his possession of the Master Sword, and the static world feature of the Temple of Time and pedestal. Note Sheik's ability to block him from doing so by standing in just the right place until he finishes the Forest Temple. In addition, time travel is not without its costs: Link ages or regresses 7 years (and loses or regains the corresponding time in his life) each time he does so. He's not actually instantaneously travelling through time, but because he's sealed in stasis in the Sacred Realm, it feels like it to him. Hence, his ability to travel through time are contingent on a static world feature and a powerful artifact, neither of which are innate to himself. This certainly wasn't a conscious effort on his part. He shipwrecked there, and was entirely unable to leave until he woke the Wind Fish (who was responsible for whatever "dimensional travel" may have taken place). He does so through static portals that appear at the top of the Tower, the Great Sea nearby, and later in Forbidden Fortress. Besides, he does not seem to travel time or dimensions at all, instead travelling to the bottom of the sea, where a small section of old Hyrule is frozen in time stasis by the Goddesses, using the Master Sword as a key. Hence, his ability to travel... wherever... is contingent on static world features and a powerful artifact, neither of which are innate to himself. Except Link himself is not doing the travelling, Midna is, and he is pulled along for the ride. Hence his ability to travel dimensions is contingent on the presence of an NPC, and not innate to himself. Now you're just being silly. If we're counting cameos as dimensional travel, then we're going to have a lot of trouble with any Nintendo based character. ario is by far the worst offender, between reffing boxing matches and climbing into pinball tables and lord knows what else over the past 30 years. That's because Link cannot travel dimensions without outside aid, either from static portals, artifacts, or NPCs. Whereas HMS can simply walk into other dimensions whenever he feels like it. You're overlooking an important aspect of the way Termina is constructed. The inside of the Clock Tower is the only location in the entire game (save the inside of the Moon) where time does not flow. As such, it appears to be a part of the tunnel linking Hyrule and Termina. This means that the Clock Tower interior either has a static time flow, or its own independent time flow. Either way, this says something about HMS, especially since he remembers his deal after you return to him after your first 3 days in Termina. If the flow of time was reversed to Dawn of the First day inside the Clock Tower each time, HMS would forget the deal each time; he shows no sign of having done so. Alternatively, if the deal was made 5 minutes before Dawn of the First Day, he would forget your initial failure to live up to the deal after the passing of the second 3 days; he does not do this either. Hopefully I've sufficiently picked apart these arguments now. Alt, care to choose someone else?
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Post by Altl on Jul 27, 2009 16:04:39 GMT -5
He illustrates this example in the ending of the game. If he really needed a "tunnel" to pass between dimensions, he wouldn't simply vanish into thin air out of the middle of Termina Field. This is just an overall poor argument that's probably been dropped eight times. There is no logical reason to assume that his disappearing is equal to dimension jumping. He could be teleporting as Link often does, or turning invisible. Since his back is to the camera he could quite possibly be using an item, though I'll admit that there is no real indication of that. [/b] Link does, then? More likely that's embellishment to deflect suspicion, and he was quite capable of making his way to the other side of the door on his own and coming in that way to meet Link.[/quote] HMS appears behind Link when he first shows up and right next to the ramp that leads down to the clock tower basement. So Appearances make me think he actually was following Link. More importantly, at the end of the game HMS suggests to Link that he should head home, how is Link to get back unless the rift is always there? Here is how the initial meeting of HMS and Link goes: Link meets HMS and agrees to get the mask back in exchange for HMS curing him > Link exits clock tower > black screen: DAWN OF THE FIRST DAY. So Link goes back in time to the dawn of the first day a few minutes after the deal is struck, HMS does not have his mask; I think its self-explanatory. There is the flaw that the HMS has no way of knowing that he turned Link back to normal, but at the same time I get the feeling HMS would still be persistent on Link retrieving MM regardless of his normal state. Josh Carter (ObsCure)
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Post by Draxas on Jul 27, 2009 16:51:39 GMT -5
I'm going to need the complete rundown, since I've never played it. You know the drill.
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Post by N3B on Jul 27, 2009 20:16:51 GMT -5
How can we even be certain that he is traveling through dimensions? For all we know he's teleporting somewhere else in the same world, or just put on the Stone Mask or the Mask of Invisibility or pulled a Impa/Sheik-style ninja vanish.
I think Nintendo wanted him to leave and get his resources completely out of that cutscene, and decided that it was out of character for him to just walk away (seeing as they don't animate any of his other motions), and said "Dudes, we could just have him disappear, and that'd totally blow people's minds. They'd be like 'damn, that's the HMS all right' and just roll with it cause he's such a weird dude"
The point is ultimately that there are all kinds of possibilities for what could explain that, none of which have any concrete explanation, so to make the conclusion that he is definitely "jumping dimensions" is simply unacceptable.
Have the HMS be pulled into the realm of COR against his will and discover that, for whatever mystical reason, his power to travel through dimensions (if he even does have that) has been blocked? Then he's gotta figure out how to get back to wherever he wants to be the hard way like everyone else?
Negative -- you said that Majora made the tunnel and then went through it, and that Skull Kid was essentially taken along for the ride. You still have not proven that HMS did or did not.
To play Devil's Advocate: If Link (and the Skull Kid through extension of the mask) require the possession of some sort of magical artifact to travel through dimensions, what's to say that HMS is not bound by the same confines? If Majora's Mask has the power to rip holes in time and space to travel to "alternate dimensions" who's to say that HMS doesn't have another vastly powerful mask to do similar things?
</Devil's Advocate><Real Argument> Furthermore, in order for the backstory which Tatl gives you regarding the Skull Kid, he would have to have traveled to Termina on his own without the Mask (he was friends with the Giants before they were summoned to the temples to protect Termina, and then got irritated when they left him and started pulling pranks on people -- he meets Tatl and Tael, and then steals the Mask). I am of the opinion that Skull Kids aren't magical enough to "travel through dimensions" since there is no indication made anywhere that they are anything but mere Kokiri who get lost in the Lost Woods.
Which leaves either A) He went through a persistent portal between Hyrule and Termina, which Link definitely goes through later [meaning it was there for HMS to go through], or B) Skull Kids have mysterious powers to travel through dimensions, and then he made the portal from "the other side."
A is far more logical. And if A is the logical answer, logic then follows that HMS would simply follow SK and Link.
Time stands still in the Clock Tower only when you are in there -- if time stood still when HMS was in there by himself, he would have no need for his 3 day time limit to leave the place, because he could just sit there and wait indefinitely for Link to get the mask.
If you walk into the Clock Tower at 11:30AM and stay there for 10 minutes (in real time), you come back out and it will still be 11:30AM -- all the characters will be exactly where they were when you walked in (at least the ones in the Bomber's Notebook who follow schedules). If time stood completely still when HMS was in there by himself, the characters elsewhere wouldn't move at all.
While you make a point that "time stands still" in the Clock Tower, time seems relative to you, and has nothing to do with HMS.
Again, I'll return to "He remembers the deal after your first 3-Day Cycle because Dawn of the First Day happens perhaps immediately after you make the deal."
I can't seem to understand what it is you're trying to argue here. It really sounds like you're agreeing with me or just making irrelevant use of the subjunctive.
Regardless of whether he remembers or forgets curing Link and Link failing to get the mask back, as far as he's concerned, at Dawn of the First Day, Link has agreed to get Majora's Mask back, and that's all HMS really cares about. He makes no mention of anything other than "Where's my mask?" when you talk to him in subsequent cycles (he recognizes you in your different transformations, indicating that he can see beyond your mask to your true self).
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Post by Razor on Jul 27, 2009 22:34:45 GMT -5
I gotta say I'm rather sick of this whole debate. N3B makes a good point in that you COULD just have him find any dimensional-traveling ability he had to be blocked off.
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Post by Draxas on Jul 27, 2009 22:57:24 GMT -5
He's right, I could. Anyone care to write his backstory without it? He's TOO damned mysterious.
That's right, my sticking point where I rejected him was his bio. I could not write anything that laid out his character and motivations without mentioning that he skips between worlds at will in search of masks (specifically Majora's, which is the only one truly relevant to his character beyond some being weird guy in a mask rental shop). If I open that door, I open other doors; any powers that anyone might have sealed during the course of this game are going to get unsealed eventually. What then? We're talking about a game-breaking character here. Even if you make the argument that he travels through external means, he doesn't just get dragged along for the ride like so many others with similar abilities; he has mastery over the ability (plus we have no idea what that external means could be. Occam's razor takes effect...).
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Lady Rae
New
Dark Lady Under the Earth
bad mushroom?
Posts: 48
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Post by Lady Rae on Jul 27, 2009 23:05:05 GMT -5
*peeks in shyly*
Um... hi. Is it possible that I can join?
I'm actually a friend of Razor's, and he invited me here to play. I wanted to initially, but I couldn't come up with anything until now. I know that my idea is probably ridiculous, but I think it could be mind-warpingly delightful if I tried at it.
Umm... could I try Cooking Mama, if that's alright?
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