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Post by N3B on Jul 28, 2009 15:29:52 GMT -5
So what if you're engaging in in-character tomfoolery? If I were to, for example, express my frustrations with Alone in the Dark in-character as Mr Carnby, a la my first post before my intro was actually posted?
As for your avatar, your profile doesn't even register a URL for it -- I'd check that out.
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felix9
Regular
"Aura guide me."
Posts: 292
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Post by felix9 on Jul 28, 2009 16:13:26 GMT -5
YAY! Pokemorphs! XP
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Post by Draxas on Jul 28, 2009 17:09:23 GMT -5
I'm not sure why Proboards hates my avatar. Mrrh.
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Post by N3B on Jul 28, 2009 18:23:44 GMT -5
Another observation:
Suppose that we are observers and we are unaffected by any of the time manipulations; when Link walks in the Clock Tower, everything outside comes to a halt and we see Link and HMS doing their own thing inside.
If time stood still outside when HMS was in there, similar to how it does when Link is in there, would anything ever happen outside, so long as HMS remains inside? Link would step outside and would have to freeze like everyone else, and nothing would ever happen until HMS left the CT.
Given that we, through the perspective of Link, are able to play the game and see people's schedules progress, HMS would have to leave the CT the exact moment we leave, and re-enter the exact moment we do, in order for any of the actual game to happen -- no indication is given that he ever leaves the CT except at the very end of the game.
It therefore seems reasonable to believe that he remains there, and that time must flow outside when Link is outside. Meaning that the connection is between Link and the CT, or that HMS manually stops time the moment Link walks in and resumes it when Link walks out.
The thing about him manually stopping time makes me wonder why he doesn't do it outside as well, in order to help Link out. The only reason I could think for doing it in the CT is that he's trying to prevent Link from wasting time, but if this were the case, why would he not do so outside in some manner to reduce Link's travel time to essentially zero? Perhaps his powers are simply limited to some sort of Space, in order to allow Link to be unaffected like when he's in the Clock Tower. But if he is actively trying to help Link in this instance, in order to get his mask back, why does he otherwise not play a more active role in getting it back? Why does he not manipulate time in some sort of manner to circumvent his necessitous 3 day ultimatum?
It seems that I have to ask too many questions in order to justify that he actually has the power to stop time, and that none of them can actually be answered given the evidence we have. It is therefore simpler to assume that the developers slipped up in that regard and to not assume anything more than that they made a continuity error. If they had fully intended for him to have this power, one would think that they would have fleshed the idea out much more clearly than they did.
Or maybe they intentionally borked things up to make idiots like us debate these things and leave the character a completely mystery wrapped in strange.
One thing which throws another kink into this whole theory is that inside the CT, where time allegedly stops, all of the gears continue to turn. The water flows, the water wheel turns, the column rotates, and all of the gears in the ceiling turn in real-time. Outside, the clock face doesn't change, despite the gears continuing to turn. If time is supposed to stand still in here, then the water wouldn't flow and the gears wouldn't turn. Even if time only stops outside, the clock face would still be affected by the turning gears. It does not change.
Which indicates that some sort of error in any theory is going to be present -- either HMS is supposed to be able to affect the flow of time and the gears turning happens to be a continuity error, or time "stopping" inside was a design flaw that the developers overlooked. Meaning that a definitive conclusion cannot be derived by any of this evidence, given the inconsistencies.
This boils down to the idea that you (or Alt or whoever) should have the freedom to make HMS into whatever would plausibly work.
Cooking Mama, for instance, is not a character whom I would think would have enough plot to make a coherent Bio out of, aside from the simple premise that she endeavors to teach recipes to people. You have the freedom to embellish her personality or to role-play her however you need to make her into a full solid character, given that there aren't any restrictions in the source material -- I can't see why similar liberties can't be taken with HMS, especially given how speculative and inconclusive his entire nature is.
Take Pac-Man from Season 1 as another example.
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Post by Draxas on Jul 28, 2009 21:57:11 GMT -5
OK, this is getting ridiculous. This is the last post on this subject. The status of HMS as a playable character is not up for debate. As Razor said, this is starting to get tiresome.
The lengthy explanation above fails to take Occam's Razor into account once again. The simple explanation is that the flow of time in Termina is separate from and unrelated to the flow of time inside the clock tower. Time stops flowing in Termina when you enter the clock tower because you are actually leaving Termina entirely, reinforcing that something extradimensional occurs when you cross that threshold.
I had nearly a full profile worked out for HMS before I hit the sticking point of his bio and had to back out. Much like Mama, most of his abilities and capabilities were a combination of extrapolation and ass-pull. Unlike Mama, how the hell do you describe what this guy does with himself? He hangs out in places where the flow of time is all screwed up, appears and vanishes with no warning and apparently at will, and pulls objects several times larger than himself out of hammerspace. Trying to describe him in mundane terms while giving sufficient information to have a basis for RP is futile at best, infuriating at worst, and overall just frustrating. Hence my executive decision to remove him as an option as a PC.
Depressingly enough, none of Pac-Man's profile is BS. He is drawn practically verbatim from the game Pac-Man World, with abilities he had from other games thrown in for flavor.
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Post by N3B on Jul 28, 2009 22:31:01 GMT -5
The lengthy explanation above fails to take Occam's Razor into account once again. That's precisely because I was trying to argue and justify things from your side of the argument, in order to demonstrate how utterly complicated such an argument is. In essence, your argument fails to take Occam's Razor into account once again.Assuming that the developers goofed up and failed to properly tie up all of their loose ends seems like the most down-to-earth explanation to me, with the fewest amount of extra assumptions having to be made. Assuming that HMS is jumping dimensions because he disappears and that he controls time because of the CT seem like you're taking it one step too far (at least). A tree falls in the forest, I assume it got knocked down in a storm, you're assuming an alien space craft knocked it down. Game developers making errors in their games is already a well-accepted fact, whereas HMS traveling through dimensions is still mere speculation. Again, where is the evidence to prove that that is CONCRETELY what happens? I feel like I've provided a plethora of evidence to the contrary which at the very least suggests that the entire issue is flawed and riddled with inconsistencies and that no solid argument can be made. And if that's the case with CT, then that place has absolutely nothing to do with HMS and would further suggest that that portal was constantly there and that HMS simply walked through that, in short, that HMS has ABSOLUTELY NO supernatural powers beyond any masks or other artifacts he might use. Still, what's your explanation for the clock? If they're in separate dimensions, how does the clock work? How do the disparities of time between the two dimensions work out, in terms of that clock?
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Post by N3B on Jul 28, 2009 22:41:53 GMT -5
This is the last post on this subject. The status of HMS as a playable character is not up for debate. I stopped caring about that long ago -- it's merely the principle that I think your argument lacks the gusto to stand up on its own, and that you seem to be rather stubborn about it, completely closed to any debate or other possible explanation. All I can say is he'd better have some major kick-ass role as an NPC. Link has been known to do that stuff as well.
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Post by Altl on Jul 28, 2009 22:56:15 GMT -5
From the instruction manual: "Josh Carter is a typical small reporter who spends his leisure time reading science fiction novels and working on his movies. He is an inquisitive-minded student, constantly tacking down various scoops and smelling out "the case of the century." This time though, he may well be right...
Special Aptitude: By playing Josh, you will see objects or clues blinking immediately every time you enter a room (whereas for the other characters, the objects only blink when you pass them by). Moreover at any point by pressing [SPACE], Josh tells you if there are any objects left for you to pick up in the room."
He's in general supposed to be Joe every nerd so stats along those lines.
Okay, so lets suppose it IS the case that the flow of time inside the clock tower is separate from that of Termina. When Link enters into the clock tower, time in termina seems to stop which is to say: if Link enters at 11:30 and stays in there for some period of time, when he leaves it is still 11:30. So either no time has passed or an very very small amount has passed [in Termina]. Now if the difference in the flow of time is central to the location we can assume this also occurs for HMS. At the very beginning HMS states that he is a busy man and will be leaving in three days. Given the way things seem to behave, a perhaps infinite amount of time can pass within the clock tower before a millisecond occurs in Termina, so the minute Link steps outside the Happy Mask Salesman will have long since left.
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Post by Draxas on Jul 28, 2009 23:27:47 GMT -5
Once again, I am no longer debating this. N3B, if you have time to analyze this situation, you should instead be posting in the actual game thread.
Alt, I got the manual description from FAQs / Wikipedia, which is how I've come up with what I did. Unfortunately, where said sources fall short is in the department of comparative analysis. Compared to the other characters in the game, how do his stats stack up? I've found out that there are 5 main characters in Obscure, so where does Josh rank in the hierarchy (and the others, so I have a better idea who he's better and/or worse than at what he does)? From what I understand, this is a game where cheerleaders are deadly with weapons and the slacker might be the biggest brain of them all, so I can't make that call and I need your help to do so.
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Post by N3B on Jul 28, 2009 23:37:50 GMT -5
You mean you wish to surrender? Very well, I accept.
Though I have to say that, honestly, this debate has been really rather interesting and has made me think of both MM and the theory of relativity in ways I had never thought of before. It's applied science, for the win.
My bad for expanding my cognitive facilities rather than playing a game >.<
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Post by N3B on Jul 28, 2009 23:45:00 GMT -5
Compared to the other characters in the game, how do his stats stack up? I've found out that there are 5 main characters in Obscure, so where does Josh rank in the hierarchy (and the others, so I have a better idea who he's better and/or worse than at what he does)? From what I understand, this is a game where cheerleaders are deadly with weapons and the slacker might be the biggest brain of them all, so I can't make that call and I need your help to do so. All of the characters are supposed to be balanced for various situations -- Kenny and Ashley are obviously more combat oriented (Kenny moves faster, hits harder, and takes less damage, while Ashley specializes in firearms attacking twice per bullet (somehow) and using special melee attacks). Shannon, Stan, and Josh are more like support characters (Shannon heals for more, and gives useless clues for where you should be going, Stan can pick locks faster than anyone else, and Josh can see special hidden items). The characters' differences are supposed to be superficial, given that they are all expendable and are not required to complete the game (unlike Obscure 2, in which it's game over if a character dies, because each one is required for scripted puzzles). As such, most of them tend to be virtually the exact same, except with different Perks (or Techniques if you want to call it that). When Alt and I played Obscure, we alternated characters based on which one had the most health at the time, without paying too much attention to the special abilities because they really were kind of useless (granted, we'd take Stan if we got our butts kicked trying to pick a lock and thus solve a puzzle with spawning enemies). We always took Josh with us because it made life easier for him to tell us if we were completely finished with a room or not, rather than run around aimlessly hoping we got everything or did everything. You might say that Josh is incredibly average in most regards and has no real strengths other than his observational ability, evident in his reporting for the school paper or whatever. This might mean him being able to see clever ways to solve puzzles, or to be particularly resourceful of his environment. In truth, I regard him like a teenaged Edward Carnby -- they're both investigators who get involved in paranormal affairs. Main difference is that Edward is more resilient. Though the actual gameplay of Obscure limits your creative abilities with the environment, I would imagine that Josh would be the creative one among the group. Stan is a delinquent slacker, but he possesses "Street knowledge" which the other characters essentially lack. Suppose a big plant demon spawns: Kenny would react by grabbing an axe and attacking it, Ashley would jump into the fray to protect Kenny, Shannon would stand back and try to analyze the situation and give advice, Josh would help or fight indirectly by doing something with the environment, and Stan would do whatever happens to be practical. Stan and Josh are the most likely of the group to run away from a fight, not out of cowardice but out of wisdom that avoiding a fight is a smart move. In terms of fantasy archetypes: Kenny = tank/warrior hybrid Ashley = warrior/mage hybrid Shannon = healer/buffer Josh = rogue Stan = the fantasy equivalent of a buff mechanic For example: Kenny: HP: average MP: low TP: low ATK: high DEF: high SATK: low SDEF: low AGL: high Shannon: HP: average MP: average TP: average ATK: average DEF: average STAK: high SDEF: high AGL: average Ashley: HP: average MP: average TP: high ATK: average DEF: average SATK: high SDEF: high AGL: average Stan: HP: average MP: average TP: average ATK: average DEF: average SATK: average SDEF: average AGL: average Josh: HP: average MP: average TP: average ATK: average DEF: average SATK: average SDEF: average AGL: average
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Post by Draxas on Jul 29, 2009 8:51:09 GMT -5
All right. Now this is the kind of info I was looking for. Thank you. Alt's character sheet should be finished and ready to roll stats shortly.
I've not conceded anything, but this debate has no place in this thread anymore. If you really want to discuss it further, start a thread in the Nintendo board, and we can debate 'till our heads explode. But the pages of discussion here are getting disruptive; I need to use this thread for administration of the game, but it's now as long as the game itself.
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Post by Altl on Jul 29, 2009 21:29:58 GMT -5
HP: 19 HP TP: 18 TP MP(0): 0/0 MP
ATK: 11 DEF: 12 S-ATK: 10 S-DEF: 9 AGL: 11
edit: I don't plan to reroll any of these
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Post by Draxas on Jul 30, 2009 9:07:27 GMT -5
All righty then, your sheet is complete. I'll have your intro up shortly.
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Post by Razor on Jul 30, 2009 13:29:08 GMT -5
Warcraft-scale combat: Way too many dice rolls for Draxas, I'm sure.
Reminds me of when I tried running a multi-game themed LMS spinoff on another server. I thought it'd add a bit more depth to give weapons some variable accuracy.
...boy was THAT a mistake.
At least I had the good sense to limit it to one post per player per day.
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